10 | The Nature of the Universe at the Dinner Table

Welcome to the Cow Behind the Barn: A podcast exploring humanity, the world, and the divine, as experienced and interpreted by an artist. I’m Kevin Caldwell, a Co-Finder of the Table Collective.

Episode 10. Time to put the cards on the table: what is the nature of the world we live in?

It was Episode 2 when I first asked, “where and when did I begin,” having no idea that it would take me 9 Episodes just to probe the “where” in that question. Am I done now? Do I have it all figured out? Of course not. In fact I have more questions than when I began.

My way of understanding what “where” means is now shaped by and entangled with quantum theories about the world and with how some of the world’s religious heritages have imagined the nature of the universe. Those voices have affected my inner being, how I engage with my memories of the places I have lived and the people I lived there with. As such my poetic and musical art have been affected. I have created new work, and have experienced older pieces in new ways as a result.

Episode by Episode I have allowed my past, and my art to speak. I have given voice to the Bhagavad Gita, the Buddha, Lao Tzu, the book of Genesis, the Gospel of John, the Quran, and quantum physics.    

And today I am recording the Episode in which I will try to summarize what all those voices are saying, and what I think about what “where” means when I ask, “where and when did I begin.” 

Of course, as I ask that, implicitly I am asking it about you, and about the trees that line the street where I am staying as I record this Episode, and the air I breathe, and the people who came before me, before us, and the people in countries where the events of today’s news are taking place,  etc. 

If you have listened to even a few of the Episodes you know that although I have tried to stay focused on “where”, on the nature of the world we live in, many times I have brought in things related to the “when/time” or the “I/consciousness” ingredients of that “where and when did I begin” question. More times than I can count I add a comment like, “we will come back to that,” and quickly return to the “where”, or place and space element.

In this Episode I really, really do plan to try once again to focus just on questions related to matter, to the stuff making up our universe. I mean that question alone is plenty complex. All the questions have sub questions:

“What is it”: 

What is it made of, is it real (yes, a serious question), and in what way/s? Does each thing exist on its own, or interconnected? 

“Is this the only world”: 

Are the other “where’s” and if so, are they like this one?

“How has this world, or worlds, come about”: 

How did it, or perhaps these, get here, whatever it or they is/are? 

At The Dinner Table

I think of the religious heritages and quantum physics like guests I have invited for a meal. I imagine us all seated at the table now (hence the Episode title!). We/they have listened to each other through the prior Episodes. The main courses have been served, and we have pushed away the dishes and are settling in for after dinner drinks. And my guests are looking at me, the host, to guide the remainder of the conversation. 

Quantum Speaks

I turn to the most recent guest to join the group, Quantum Physics. “Quantum sir,” I ask. 

“Tell me about the world. What is it? Is there more than one? How did it get here?” 

Quantum clears their throat, and begins:

“Well, matter is composed of elementary particles known as quarks and leptons (particles that include electrons). Quarks combine into protons and neutrons and, along with electrons, form atoms. Atoms combine into molecules, and large groups of molecules form most of the matter of everyday life…”

I notice that the eyes of my other guests are beginning to glaze. I need to do something. “Quantum thank you, great start, what is something else, about matter we should know?”

“Hmmm,” Quantum says, “well, another way to describe the world is that everything is made up of mass and energy, and mass can be converted into energy, and...” 

Quantum scans the room. The mention of “energy” has captured some attention. 

“Mass is not necessarily what you think. Those elementary particles I mentioned, which make up mass? They behave like tiny, isolated “balls” and at the same time act like “waves.”

“And this is interesting: none of those “things”, the matter and mass and energy of our daily life, is what that “thing” is until that “thing” is experienced, like when one of us measures it, sees it, touches it. I know that is not how we experience things, I mean, they seem like they just “are.” But this is how things work. Nothing exists independently of being observed and experienced, you and I.”

I notice the Buddha and the Gita are nodding in agreement.

“But I don’t just mean that each specific thing, its particles etc., is entangled with those who observe them and experience them. These “particles” are also entangled with other particles, they affect each other in ways we do not understand. Not just those that are nearby to each other, but those separated by vast distances as well.

“Reality is a vast entanglement of mass and energy operating like particles and like waves all at the same time.”

I intervene here to ask, “Are there other worlds, and do they “act” the same way?”

Quantum replies, “The implications of current quantum theories suggest the strong possibility, some physicists say necessity, that other universes existed and/or exist now. There could be a whole series of universes, like a chain, or simultaneous universes, like bubbles or pockets alongside this one. At the same time, it is very likely that those different worlds would have very different “laws of physics” and so would act differently.”

I interject, “and how did this all begin?”

“With what we like to call a big bang. Of course, nothing went bang, there could not have been sound. We also think there could have been a series of bangs. Which raises the question, what was there ever a first bang, and what was before that bang, and…”

I interrupt Quantum. “Asking questions about what was before the bang implies “time,” and I have promised not to bring that up yet!”

After a quick apology, Quantum agrees that they have covered what they have to say about our questions, so I continue with the other guests.

“I am going to start with those of you who usually get labeled as eastern, and then turn to the so-called western guests.”

The Gita Speaks 

I turn to the Gita, “what do you think of all this?”

“When Quantum speaks of particles and mass and energy, that seems like another language for the way all the many elements of nature manifest energy. I say it is a manifestation of divine energy, Krishna’s energy which is a way of saying Vishnu’s energy. But this world is full of that energy, is that energy we could say. I wonder if Quantum is talking about this divine energy without realizing it?

Also, I agree about multiple worlds. There have been and will be innumerable cycles of worlds beginning and ending. And yes, there are universes upon universes. What was “before” these cycles? The material world is all an expression of divine energy, an energy with no beginning. There is no such thing as “before” the divine energy, it has always been.” 

I want to be sure Buddha gets to speak, so I ask, “What are your views on all this?” 

Buddha Speaks

“Thank you. Quantum said nothing exists independently of being observed, and I immediately thought to myself, “we are saying the same thing.” So, what is the world? I say we don’t know, and can’t know, if what we are asking is “what is it apart from our own perceptions of it.” It exists, but it does not exist apart from our experiences and perceptions. 

Gita says that what is real is that everything is an expression of divine energy. I am very aware that my ideas about the divine are often misunderstood, and my followers have many different ideas of what I taught. I know our host wants us to discuss some of these things later, so for now I will just say that nothing is created and then exists as something independent, and since every action results from other actions, I say that an act of creation by a divine being would also be connected to other actions, and so cannot be independent. There was no bang, and no creation, independently of other factors. If I understand correctly, Gita would agree with me here because in Gita’s view matter does not exist independently. I am not saying we agree about the “divine” in Gita’s view, but we agree about everything being connected, or in Quantum’s and Kevin’s word, entangled.”

“Yes, thank you, ” I interject, “I want to hold the idea of the divine for the sessions when we talk about consciousness.”

“Of course, yes, I agree, Kevin. Let me shift topics and add that at the table we have discussed multiple universes. I see no reason to think there are not many. In a chain, one after the other? Many all at once? Speculation about such questions serves no practical purpose in ending suffering, so I am not that interested in this. I don’t think we can know the answers anyway.

How did things come about? As I said above, everything is caused by other things. Nothing happens independently from other events. This seems very consistent with what Quantum and the Gita are saying, though we use different words. And so, again, there is no beginning of everything, no first cause, big bang, or creation. Not if one defines them as events or actions independent from other events or actions. I can’t really say anything more specifically about how it all came to be. I don’t think we can know.”

I turn to the table and say, “I think the Tao Te Ching is next in line.” 

The Tao Te Ching Speaks

“Thank you! Sometimes the most important thing said is the thing not said, but since I have been asked to speak, I will say a few words. 

The world and all the things in it, and all the actions that take place in it, is all determined by the creative, generative process which I call the Tao. Some would say this is “ultimate reality”. I am saying reality is “process.” Not a process, but reality is process itself. Maybe this is what others are saying too, with different words.

Is there more than one world? Since the Tao, process, gave rise to many different things in this world, it seems natural to me to assume that the Tao also gave rise to many worlds.

And that also answers how it all came to be. The process, the Tao, is how everything happens, everything comes to be, how everything changes. The ongoing, generative, creative process is the origin of everything, and continues to shape everything. “Process” is the what and the how.” 

I know there is more to say, but to keep the conversation moving, I suggest that Genesis go next.

Genesis Speaks

“I know Kevin doesn’t want us to talk about the divine yet, though that is sort of my starting point. But leaving that out for the moment, I will say this: I think about the universe in two ways: it is the “earth and heavens,” and second, it was crafted, shaped in the beginning. 

I will start from the second one. I said crafted, shaped from, carved from, using a word that implies material prior to the crafting. So what were the earth and the heavens crafted from? Was there mass and energy, to use Quantum’s terms, and then earth and the heavens as we know them were crafted? It may seem strange to hear me ask, because after all I am the one who said, “in the beginning,” right? But at the time I wasn’t thinking about the questions the way I am now as I listen to the others.” 

There are a number of comments around the table here, as everyone says something like, “same here.”

What of my statement about earth and heavens? Heavens, plural. I suppose when I say “heavens” plural, it suggests other worlds, doesn’t it. How many heavens were there or are there? This is something else I was not wondering about until our conversation.

Now, as to “how” the world came to be, my answer would need to bring in the divine, so is it ok if I say something, Kevin?”

I motion with my hand to continue and say, “I think a brief comment is probably fitting.”

“Well, I simply say, God made it. And no matter how many universes there may be I would say God made those. Whatever it was that this earth and all the heavens were crafted from, God made that too. I’ll stop there for now.”

“Thank you,” I say, “anything else on the nature of the world you want to say?” 

“Thanks for asking, yes there is something I wasn’t sure if I should bring up. I say that after heavens and earth were crafted the next result of what I guess Tao Te Ching would say was the creative process and I would call divine creative action, was light. 

I said it, but I have to admit it is mysterious. I said light came before planets and sun and moon. I don’t fully understand what it means for light to exist if it can’t be seen.”

Genesis paused and then continued.

“Like I said, I haven’t thought about some of these things before our conversation, everyone. I am wondering: could the primordial light be akin to the energy mentioned by Gita and Quantum? Meaning it emerges from mass and energy Quantum speaks of, though I use the language of divine crafting and speaking, and Gita uses language of manifesting divine energy. It also seems similar to what the Tao Te Ching calls the creative generative process, though for me the process unfolds through divine actions and divine speech. I need to reflect on these things further.”

I comment, “That is probably true for all of us!” Everyone is nodding in agreement. Then I turn to John and motion for him to begin.

John Speaks

“I can’t answer the question about what the world is without, like Genesis, saying something about my views of the divine. Can I begin there very briefly?”

I answer, “Genesis and the Gita and the Buddha have all touched this topic. So, please proceed.”

“Ok, bear with me a moment. I wrote many years ago that the divine is ultimately “towardsness”, the nature of the divine is to lean towards and to be attentive. “In the beginning was the word, and the word was God, which was the word that was towards God.” Or, much shorter, “God is towards God’s self.” So, I understand this is what reality is: towardsness. 

I went on to say that everything in the world, all things and beings, came to be “in” the God that is towardsness. 

So, how do I answer the question about what is the world? It too shares in that quality of “towardsness.” To exist, to be, means to be towards other things, towards other people, even towards ourselves. To live in accord with the towardsness that is the quality of ultimate reality.

As such, I think I may be saying something close to Quantum’s description of entanglement when I say everything is “in” the divine as I see it. And maybe something similar to the Tao Te Ching’s idea that life is fullest when we live in harmony with the Tao, the way, the way things are, in accord with reality in other words. 

As to the questions about how the world began and whether there are many or just the one? I assumed it was crafted and spoken into being by God, like Genesis, but beyond that those are not really questions I was thinking about.”

I step in, “Since time is getting short (ok, no jokes about not talking about time, everyone!) I want the Quran to have a chance to speak.”

Quran Speaks

“Thank you, I am listening carefully, and my first thought is that I too have a hard time knowing where to start without mentioning my way of understanding the divine. And since our host is asking us to hold that topic back, I will just affirm what Genesis said, that God made it.

What is it? That is fascinating. I am very curious to talk more with Quantum, the scientist. I am a poem, and in keeping with poetry I use metaphor and imagery. Including when I say that everything is made from water. It could be that this is my way of speaking about what Quantum sees as the foundational waves and particles making up the mass and energy of everything? 

Another way for me of answering the question about what the world is, is to say everything is a sign. I mean signs of the divine, but that means that everything we see is not exactly what we think we are seeing, or at least is not only what we perceive. I would love to discuss this more with the Buddha. And you as well, Gita, and your ideas about divine energy being manifest in everything.

But for now, I say that everything is still expanding and so it is changing, which makes me think we are all, in different ways, suggesting there is some sort of ongoing process shaping the world as we know it?

How many universes? I agree fully with Quantum and Gita and Buddha about the fact that there are many universes, many worlds. 

Now, there is another topic that was mentioned in passing, and that is the idea implied when we speak of other worlds coming and going. That means that worlds end. This was not a question our host posed for us. I actually talk a lot about the end of things, and a final day, a final event. We probably have different ideas for what happens after whatever ending we understand. If there are many worlds, perhaps a final day such as I talk about is the final day for the world it refers to? But since Kevin didn’t ask, I won’t say more.”

Kevin Speaks

It is getting late, so I thank all my guests and send them home with the refrain from my podcast, “we will come back to that again!” And now at the table it is just you and I. So, how do I answer the questions my guests were addressing? 

“Tell me about the world. What is it? Is there more than one? How did it get here?”

You may have had a sense that in the words of the different guests there were times when “Kevin” was speaking as I imagined how they might have reflected on areas where they agreed or disagreed with each other. 

But here is a more explicit summary.

“Tell me about the world: What is it?” 

First, the world is in constant change, it is the very nature of reality to change, for one way I see reality is that it is an emerging generative process, and “energy” is a fitting word to describe it I suppose. But it is clear that energy involves connections between things, and so…

Things are not just things, and nothing exists in an isolated quarantined state. Much of my poetry and music explores this, but I am seeing it in deeper ways. In some cases, in my art I was intuitively seeing this reality before I understood it. We are all, everything is, entangled, in at least three ways (or, are these three all the same, just talked about differently?).

First, Quantum’s way of describing entanglement has to do with the nature of particles and how they respond under certain conditions, and how they act as if they are not predetermined to act in certain ways. As if they have minds of their own so to speak. 

Second, our perceptions and experiences entangle us with what we perceive, and experience. We are not separate from what we experience, what we experience is not separate from us. And we are not existing in isolation from other perceivers and experiencers, nor from the activity of “particles” mentioned under my first point.

Third, another way I believe is fitting to describe entanglement is to use the word I coined based on John: towardsness, things are entangled, and particles behave the way Quantum says they do, and the generative process happens as it does, and energy is manifested as it is because towardsness is in the very nature of everything.

We are all wrapped up in everything and each other. 

Ok, “Tell me about the world: Is there more than one?”

It seems to me that the overwhelmingly harmonious refrain sung at the table was either a resounding “yes”, or affirmations of the very strong possibility. There are multiple universes, in sequence and /or all at once, now. And I can’t help but agree. 

And then, “Tell me about the world: How did it get here?

The views range from “the world emerges constantly” and always has and always will, to “it began at some definite point,” with a bang or a word or an act of creation. It seems these two views call for a choice:

Either a sequence of endings and beginnings stretching backwards and forwards into endless invisible mists, or the idea that there had to have been, at some point, some first beginning that set all this in motion. In general, the so-called “east” and “west” each line up on different sides, as it were, on this topic.

The challenge is that my answer as to which side I take requires me to have a theory about time. 

Without getting into that topic, I will say this: I think they are both right!

But trying now to explain that would take me deep into the questions of time and consciousness. 

Which means this seems like a good point to start to wrap things up.

Moving My Wings

Before I do so, I want to set up a closing act of meditation for this section. 

For me, none of this is merely theoretical. If I am entangled with people and things in the ways that I say I believe to be true, then my actions and thoughts and intentions all affect the things and people and beings in the universe, and vice versa.

Being entangled affects relationships, how I see and treat people.

It affects my relationship with things too, how I see and treat the environment. 

So, as I prepare to end, I will go back to my first Episode, to the song I used to explain why I am creating a podcast even if there may be nobody who listens to it. 

Now that song has new depths for me. New echoes and resonances, because now I hear it with the harmonies from the voices of Gita, Buddha, Lao Tzu, Genesis, John, the Quran, and quantum physics. It “means”, and I am making that word a verb here, it “means differently now.

And I mean it differently, in a way I use it differently. When I sing it live, or hear my recording of it, I form intentions to move wings of compassion towards people, at events, at headlines, at the environment, at pollution, at war, at pain and suffering, at myself, and here and now, in a way I do not understand fully, I “aim” it at you, or perhaps softer, I offer it to, and for, you.

May you receive the compassionate psychic winds of my tiny butterfly wings…

Butterfly Wing

When I began to create this Episode, I though I would transition to begin looking at time in the next one, but as I was getting ready to record it I had the idea of doing an Episode that draws from some of the music and poetry I have been weaving into every session and create an Episode that was almost completely just poetry and instrumental music, and songs, selected to portray an artists way of expressing the things that my narration has been trying to describe and clarify. 

So that is what will come next as a way of wrapping up my focus on the nature of the world, the “where” in which we all live. 

Until next time!